Knowing how to make money doing a podcast is simple when you have the right strategy for starting a podcast. Top-ranked show host Courtney Elmer reveals how to start a podcast of your own.
Having a podcast of your own can be one of the fastest ways to build your authority without spending a dime on ads.
But, if you don’t want your podcast to fade into obscurity never being heard by your ideal clients on Apple, you need to have the right strategy going into it, so that you’re not wasting your time.
You’re about to hear the story of how my guest today, Jess O’Connell, managed to launch her podcast and land the number #8 spot on the Apple charts — without spending a dime.
Whether you have a podcast, are thinking of launching one, or even if a podcast isn’t remotely on your radar, you won't want to miss these launch secrets Jess spills inside this episode.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL LEARN:
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You’re Listening to the Systems Made Simple™ podcast, Episode #57, all about how to start a podcast! You’re about to hear the story of how this course creator managed to launch her podcast and land the number #8 spot on the charts — for free. Whether you have a podcast, are thinking of launching one, or whether a podcast isn’t remotely on your radar, you’ll want to hear this episode because my guest is spilling her secrets for how to take anything — whether that’s your podcast, your course, or your product, and turn it into a gold mine. Are you ready for this? Stay tuned!
Oh my goodness. I can’t wait for you to meet my good friend Jess who is here with me today to talk about her recent podcast launch, and what she did to land the number 8 spot on the charts right there in between Brendon Burchard and Angie Lee. And in case you’ve never heard of Brendon Burchard or Angie Lee, these are top-ranked podcasters with millions of downloads and a massive following.
If you’re a long time listener, you’ve heard Jess here on the show before where she shared her story about how after 6 months of hard work and hustle, she found herself generating 10K months (that magical number every entrepreneur seems to strive for) but how she hated everything about her business. She had launched 10 programs in 6 short months and was spinning all the plates, trying to keep it all going, terrified to let one stop for fear of losing it all. Her relationship with her husband was on the rocks, her kids barely knew her despite her being a “stay at home mom,” and she started to wonder If this was what it took to be successful, maybe she didn't want it.
Can you relate? Hustling your butt off, squeezing work into every spare nook and cranny of the day, in between juggling family, kids, work schedules, school schedules, client meetings, launches, and more?
When I met Jess for the first time, she was in the middle of pivoting her business to a more aligned model that felt FUN to run and that was wildly successful. And even though she’d figure out how to make the leap from $10K program launches to $70K program launches, she couldn’t figure out how to get the same momentum back into her podcast.
Jess had launched a podcast a few months earlier with some success, but it hit a plateau and her momentum started tanking. She was keeping up with creating the content, but didn’t feel connected to her audience or the platform and was phoning it in every week. Even though Jess teaches her students and clients how to operate from a place of alignment in their business, this was the one thing that for Jess, felt OUT of alignment.
So, we started working together and she sat in on that first round of our EffortLESS Podcasting Formula, back when it was a beta program that we were testing out with a small focus group, which is all about how to start a podcast.She followed the formula to a T, rebranded her show, and launched it to a new audience, and she’ll tell you that she never would have expected what happened next. She gained over sixty 5* reviews in her first week of launching, took her audience by storm, and got Apple’s attention when she landed that #8 top spot among the top marketing podcasts.
And she’s here today to tell you how she did it. Are you ready to learn how to start a podcast? Let’s roll the tape!
Courtney Elmer 0:01
Jess, welcome back to the Systems Made Simple™ podcast®! Did you know you are the first repeat guests to come on the show twice? We’re going to chat about how to start a podcast.
Jess O'Connell 0:09
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me back. That's awesome. I can’t wait to discuss how to start a podcast.
We should put together some sort of medal or award and send it out to all of our repeat guests. I'm so excited that you're back, because I can't wait for what we have to dive into today. But also, because you've had some exciting changes taking place in your business since you were last on the show. Fill us in, what's been going on?
Yes, thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited to chat with you today too about how to start a podcast. And yes, so much growth has happened in my business since the last time we talked. I've really narrowed down my focus to become even more effortless, and going with my intuition and what truly lights me up in my business. So I am narrowing into being a launch coach and helping people launch their business and launch their programs in alignment instead of throwing spaghetti at the wall, really setting up the systems in place so that they can have better, more highly profitable aligned launches.
That's amazing. It’s been so cool to watch this evolve and unfold for you these past several months because I feel like launching has always been one of your secret superpowers. You have always been so good when it comes to launching, especially the strategy side of things and doing the debrief process afterwards, and knowing how to take that information and apply it to your next launch. I have learned so much from you when it comes to launching. So I was excited to see this evolution in your business and to bring this to the forefront as your specialty because it is your zone of genius, and you're so gifted at it.
Thank you. That's really been my AHA, with this evolution too, is that the thing that comes so easy to us that it seems like common sense, that's what I've discovered is our secret genius. It's the thing that you don't think you know enough about because it comes so effortlessly to you. But really, that's the thing that makes you unique, and that's the thing that you're secretly so good at that's what you should be focusing on.
Such a good point. We've had a lot of changes and shifts happening behind the scenes within these past six months too like teaching how to start a podcast. That was something that you said to me once and bells went off in my head like, “Oh, so you mean that like the organization and the systems and the workflows and onboarding and hiring people and getting support in place? All of that stuff that seems so easy to me is actually stuff people need?” So we've really been leaning into that too, in terms of our messaging and our program offerings. What we're here to help people do and helping entrepreneurs particularly, is to enhance their quality of life in all areas.
So what we're diving into today was about seeing the need in our community, and creating something to fill that need. Because when we launched our podcast back in February, last year, we had so many people coming to us after the fact saying, What did you do to have such a successful podcast launch? I had to take a look back and see, “What did we do?” because it was the easiest, most fun launch we have ever had.
I would do it over again in a heartbeat. We really enjoyed that process. So once I started to break it all down, I got to thinking, wow, this could really help people. I had started to share it with different colleagues this whole EffortLESS Podcasting Formula™, as it's now called. It’s all about how to start a podcast effectively. And they went out and got even better results than I did. So you joined the program on the beta round, which we taught last Fall. It was so great having you in the program, particularly because you had launched a couple shows before. So seeing you launch your show, after this rebrand, and then seeing the results that you got, which we're going to dive into in a minute, was incredible. So take us back a bit to when you launched your first show, and then where you are now.
Yeah. So I launched my very first show (I'm on my third, I'm that person.) I launched my very first podcast in June of 2019. I had just started my business, so I was brand new in the industry and brand new in my business. I was trying to figure out my messaging. The podcast was called Fearless. And I had six episodes. It was about my journey to starting my own business. I grew so much in those first six weeks in my business that I didn't have the time or the long term commitment to the show. So I made the hard decision to let it go because I didn’t really know how to start a podcast.
At that point in my business, and I've talked about this before with you, I was building a million bridges to Desire Island like James Wedmore calls it. The podcast was one of them, I had monthly launches, I had a membership. I had a mastermind, I had a podcast, I had a monthly magazine newsletter —I was doing all of the things trying to get to where I wanted to go. But I ran out of bandwidth trying to get there. So the podcast was one of the things that I had to let go. But I knew that I had a podcast in me, and I couldn't stop thinking about reaching my audience in this way.
I love listening to podcasts, I learn so much from hearing them. I think they're such an impactful way to connect with your audience. We process what we hear in such a different part of our brain, that it builds that authority and connection in a totally different way. So I knew that I wanted to pick a podcast back up again. Then February of 2020, I launched my second podcast. I had been building that one up, and I knew that I was going to do it and I picked a launch date. So it was better than the first one, which I just threw some episodes on anchor and threw them on iTunes. So for the second one I had a plan, I talked to my free community about it. I launched it with two episodes to start. But it was really slow going. And I felt like I had a little bit of momentum in the beginning because I was excited about it. But I also had all of these beliefs that had come up about being more perfect than the first one. I was scripting podcasts and just reading from the script.
So it was incredibly robotic. It was so bad! People were leaving reviews saying, “this is so robotic, you can tell she's reading from a script, what is she doing?” It didn’t feel like me at all. So like five or six episodes into that I was like, you know what, screw the script, I am just going to talk. That was really when the energy shifted in the podcast. I didn't have a plan. I didn't have an outline. I didn't make show notes. I just turned on my microphone, and I would talk. But the problem with that is like while it was really authentic and connecting with people, it turned into weekly random thoughts with Jess. There was no direction, no plan, and it didn’t lead anybody into my business. It was just this thing that was taking up my time every week and I was editing it. It was a mess. While it was like a 10 on the authenticity factor, it was a 0 on the usefulness factor. Not the right way to learn how to start a podcast.
That’s when last summer, I thought, “I’m going to rebrand this.” My message had shifted, my company name had changed, the name I was using for the podcast came up trademarked. But it was missing something, it was missing intention. It was missing me behind it. I had just been going through the motions and didn’t really know how to start a podcast. I was at a point where I was recording the episode, like the night before it was posting and sending it to my poor editor and he was getting frustrated with me. I knew that it wasn't my best work. That was when you had mentioned that you were creating this EffortLESS Podcasting™ program.
I’d seen your results with launching your podcast because we launched around the same time, and then saw your results with other people in our circle using your Method. And I was like okay, what is the secret here, because I have been showing up every single week for six or seven months at that point. I was busting my ass to get to 100 listens a week. I knew that there had to be a better way on how to start a podcast that people want to listen to. I knew there had to be a more intentional way. And most of all, I knew there had to be a way to directly connect my podcast into my funnel. So it wasn't just random thoughts with Jess. It was a really intentional piece of my business that was actually bringing in ideal clients and that was really the biggest intention that I had for the relaunch and rebrand That we did together. The EffortLESS Podcasting Formula™ absolutely made that possible for me. I learned the proper way how to start a podcast.
That's amazing. I want to go back to something you said and call this out. For those listening, pay attention, because what you said about your second podcast was that you were showing up, you were doing the things, but it wasn't leading anyone to your business. And what good is a podcast if it doesn't get you more sales and clients? What's the point? That's the problem that I see with so many podcasters. And the reason why so many podcasts go up on Apple, then go to the Apple graveyard to die. It’s because people don't have the intentionality behind their show--that’s not how to start a podcast. They don't have a clear strategy for their show, not just a clear strategy to create the show and get it up. But a clear strategy specifically to warm people up for what you do, like you said, for your podcast to become a very integral part of your funnel. And a strategy to actually get it launched, get it seen, and to reach that wider audience, which is probably the reason why you started a podcast in the first place, right? Because you wanted to get that message out there in a bigger way. Then finally, on the back end of that a strategy to continue growing it, because it's one thing to get it out there. But then it's a whole ‘nother animal to figure out, “how am I going to drive traffic to the podcast so that the podcast can drive traffic to my business?”What’s the key to learn how to start a podcast? Then once you've got that strategy and have that figured out, it becomes this beautiful ecosystem, because it saves you so much time in preparing content for social media. And like you said, it helps you to establish your authority in a way that you can do so much more quickly than you can with a 400-word post on Instagram.
Yes, oh my gosh, all of those things. Not having that intentionality was leading my podcast astray. People would tune in and be like, “Oh, I like this girl.” But then the next week, who knew what I was on my mind. It had no intention. It wasn't leading people anywhere. So people would listen and like it and maybe agree with what I was saying. But they wouldn't go any further than that. They wouldn't follow me on Instagram, they wouldn't become clients of mine, they wouldn't learn anything else for me. That was really feeling frustrating. I had all of these holes in my funnel, where people were not making it to the next level, because I wasn't intentional about how I was leaving them.
And having that strategy in that ecosystem has been absolutely pivotal to growing this new phase of my business and establishing that authority, because now I have a clear plan to get people in, a plan for what I'm doing while I'm with them, and a plan to grow it on the other side. I now have a plan to take the content that I'm creating and turning it into even more content. So taking the transcripts in the show notes, and expanding upon that into further content creation, because of the way that you taught us in the program, my podcast has now become like the source material for all of the content in my entire business, which has taken so much off of my plate, because I only have to create one piece of content, and then it becomes so much more content down the road. It’s the right way to learn how to start a podcast.
That has been huge in our business too, because I remember back when every week, you sit down and you're like, “Alright, I gotta nurture this email list. What do I say this week?” And your fingers are hovering over the keyboard. Then over here on social media, you're creating content talking about this. Then over here, you're doing live videos on this. Then if you have a podcast, like you had, it was random thoughts with Jess: this week guys, I’m talking about this. There's no clear plan. So your audience, you know — we all know this from marketing 101 — is don't confuse or you'll lose. Yet, what do we do with our content? Confusion is what most people's strategy is. It's a little of this, a little of that. There's no real recipe that pulls it all together. So that recipe is the strategy. So let's start talking numbers, because we can talk about why having a strategy is so important all day. But I want those listening today to also see the difference between what it's like to launch a show without a strategy, versus what it's like to launch one with one.
So let's do this, if you can remember numbers-wise, at least ballpark from your last podcast launch where you were, and then how this one was different in terms of the rankings, the number of reviews you got and the number of downloads you got during that first week.
Yeah. So with my second podcast, which had a slightly more intentional launch, I had about 25 listens. So when I launched it, I had sent it to my group, and said “Hey, we're launching the podcast!” Then what happened is I had a slew of negative reviews because I used to be a blogger, and I had people on the internet who don't love me. But you know what listens are listens and reviews are reviews, so I take it. But I had a super low rating on iTunes, like 1.5 stars. It was a totally gross energy. I didn't feel great about it. But that was my only launch was like, “Hey, I uploaded these iTunes, you should go listen to it. And also, maybe leave a review. So I don't look like a total loser on iTunes.” That was my strategy. I had 25 listeners a week, probably like 10 starting out, but it got to like 25 for a couple months. Then it started to creep up.I had the good fortune of being on James Wedmore’s podcast, which brought some more people to my podcast, and also Katherine Zenkina’s podcast. So slowly, because of being on other people's podcasts, more people started to find me. But by the time that I shut down that podcast, which was the week before I launched this one — there was a semi coherent transition there — I was only getting like 110 to 120 listens a week.
And it took eight months to build that up. It was a slow haul. I never ranked at all on iTunes. Like I said, with like a million negative reviews, they don't really put you on a list except for like a no fly list. This is not the way to learn how to start a podcast.
A don’t listen list?
Exactly. The worst podcasts on iTunes list. So I struggled with that. I never gained the momentum that I was looking for on how to start a podcast. That was one of the reasons why I wanted to relaunch was really to kind of re-kick it off with this fresh energy, this fresh perspective, and this new direction. So when I launched the podcast after going through the EffortLESS Podcasting Formula™ what I did was I pre-recorded five episodes. So I launched with five. They all went live on the same day. I followed your launch formula to a tee, I gathered my group of groupies. We had a very clear intention of the day, I had a giveaway where I was giving away different prizes and different programs to work with me. I really hyped it up, “here a sneak peek! It’s five days til launch!” I made it something exciting, and I treated it like a launch because I'm a launch coach.
I know how to create desire and demand for something. So I went into it with the mindset of, “I'm launching something” rather than throwing some episodes on iTunes and hoping for the best, which has been my launch strategy before. I had this intentional intention with it. It really went well. In our first 48 hours, we had just over 500 downloads, which is the best way to learn how to start a podcast. That was really crazy. So we had five episodes, so an average of 100 downloads per episode. That was amazing. So even more than my listenership on the previous podcast came to the new podcast and downloaded and then after 48 hours of launch, I had 51 reviews. Almost all of them are five stars.
Courtney Elmer 18:56
That's awesome. That's amazing. Wow. And I'm curious too, because you touched on something here that I think is really important to point out as well which is that you’re a launch coach. So what's the difference between launching a program and launching a podcast? There is none. And that is a huge mistake that most podcasters just completely miss. They're completely unaware of it, that launching a podcast is no different from launching a course. Of course, there's some nuances and some different things that you have to do. And that's why the strategy piece is so important because it's the strategy going into the creation. It's a strategy of launching, and it's a strategy on the back end to drive traffic to the show. But in broad terms, it's no different than launching a program because you still have to create awareness and drive people to it and build that hype in an authentic way. Which it sounds like you were able to do, and it was fun for me to watch you do it because I could see the shift in your energy.
Yeah, that’s a great point. I didn't treat it like a launch for the first two podcasts. I thought I’d upload them and people would listen. But they went to the graveyard to die. That intentionality and treating it like a launch and having that intentionality where I created desire and demand, and I knew why I wanted my listeners to listen, and shared what was in it for them made it so effective. I created an offer around the podcast, and a reason to participate in the launch. It wasn't just like, “Hey, you like me, so go Leave me a review.” It was like, “Hey, we're doing this intentional promotion. And this is what you get out of it.” And I think that having that like treating it like a launch is how I was able to get results like a launch. The other thing that I forgot to mention was that within the first 48 hours, I was ranked number eight in marketing on iTunes. Marketing is my number one category and it is one of the most competitive categories in online business because that's where James Wedmore lives. Angie Lee, Chalene Johnson, Jenna Kutcher, Amy Porterfield, all of those people, Brendon Burchard, live in marketing, that's their category. And I was ranked number eight, right between Angie Lee and Brendon Burchard!
You just slid right in there--so great when you’re learning how to start a podcast. I remember I was sitting on my couch and we were watching Yellowstone because Alan and I, you know, we have a new show of the week, like a flavor of the week. So I'm sitting there and I get your text at like 9:30pm. It was a screenshot of your show, right there in between Brendon Burchard and Angie Lee. Now these are podcasters, guys, if you have never heard of these people, that have millions upon millions of downloads, and they're in the top ranked spots every week. I'm not saying it's impossible to land there because Jess did. But it is unheard of if you don't have the strategy for doing it. So, that was the highlight of my week to celebrate that with you because that was so big. And what that does is it gets so many more eyeballs on your show. Because guess what, anytime someone's searching for marketing podcasts, they're going to go look at the top shows and if your show is right there, “Hey, there’s my little new podcast right here next to these big gigantic podcast greats.” Well, people are going to see you and you're going to increase your listenership.
Yeah. And it's also a seat at the table, right on how to start a podcast? It puts your face and your name between those faces and those names, and it makes people associate you with them. And say like, oh, man, she's at that table. When you can create that level of authority, just by following a launch strategy, it's invaluable for your business. Because it's not something that anybody can do. But because of the way that you've created the launch strategy, and by intentionally treating your podcast launch as a launch. That's what's possible top ranking podcasts in your first 48 hours. And I think that's incredible.
And without spending a dime on ads to promote. What a great way to learn how to start a podcast.
Yes, yes. Totally free.
Yes, completely based on organic traffic, which we know from being entrepreneurs in business for a while, as many of those listening are. You’ve got to spend money to make money in a lot of cases and to get the visibility that you want. The main method for doing that is shelling out thousands of dollars on Facebook ads, paying Mark Zuckerberg to promote your business. And we know that organic traffic, while it's certainly a solid strategy for growth, usually takes a lot longer. So the fact that this was a completely organic strategy, meaning not a dime was spent to promote this show to get these results; then coupled with those results, it propels you forward on so many levels with your name being associated with these greats out there and your show getting seen by more people.
It is the fast way to get seen organically. So much faster than you can on Instagram trying to compete with stupid algorithms. You know another text that I got from you that came to mind as you were sharing that was a text where you were like, “Holy cow, where has this been all my life?!” You were talking about one of the resources that we have, the cheat sheet for how to title your episodes, literally plug and play titles. You shared a screenshot in our Facebook community with 20 plus episodes that you had cranked out. And you were so excited about it. And now every time I get your weekly email with your new episode that drops, it's so clear. It's so intentional. And it's got a really snazzy click baity title that's like, “Oh, yes, I need to hear this.” Again, creating that desire and demand and piquing that curiosity for your listener.
And I think that that's really one of the most powerful pieces I mean, so the whole EffortLESS Podcasting Formula™ that’s so powerful, and creating that intentionality top to bottom. Planning your episodes, having them lead people directly into your funnel, having the structure of how to structure an episode — that was something that was totally new for me because like I said, I was just doing random thoughts with Jess so there was no intro, there was no outro, there was no intentionality in the middle. Having that structure was so powerful for me to say, “Cool, I can lead people down a journey.” So my listeners are listening longer. They're sticking through the episode, they're getting something from it. Rather than just listening to me babble for 17 minutes. I have intentional pieces, I have calls to action, I have calls to engage, all of these things that I had no clue what I was doing before, all because of the way that you set up the program.
Having weekly emails is the new thing that you taught me too! That cheat sheet with the episode titles was fire. Maybe other people who are listening, and they're like, “Oh, my gosh, how could I have a podcast? I don't know what I'm going to talk about.” That's where I was. Every week I'd think, what do I want to talk about? And because of this one cheat sheet, it completely unlocked ideas. It’s like Mad Libs. It gives you the structure of the title and leaves blanks for you to fill in. So it's like, “The Fastest Way to [blank]”. And I was like, “The Fastest Way to Launch Your Program.” That's an episode! Then it was like, “The Secret [blank] to [blank]” And I was like, “The Secret Strategy To High Converting Launches.” There's another episode! It triggered my brain to come up with episode titles, which then gave me a plan for what I'm going to record, it completely unlocked all of the things in my mind that were stuck, and gave me a ton of episode ideas that now I'm never going to run out of episodes.
Yes, I love it. So, so much. I could talk about this--how to start a podcast--all day. It’s like I've uncovered his secret love affair with podcasting. There's something about it that sparks so much joy in me. And, it sparks so much joy in me to see other people succeeding — not because of anything that I've done — but because there's a strategy in place that I can now pass along to others that they can execute, to have so much success with their show and get their message out in the world in a bigger way, just like you did. So as we wrap this episode today, are there any final thoughts that you would love to leave our listeners with who might be considering hosting a podcast of their own? (Whether they were before this episode or not!) As a launch coach, in terms of launching anything and launching a podcast, specifically?
What I want to say is, if you're sitting here listening to this podcast, thinking, maybe I should start a podcast, you should follow that. Podcasts are such a powerful medium. I mean, look at how much you trust Courtney and care about what she says week after week. That can be possible for you too. You can have your audience tuning in week after week to hear what you have to say. If that's you, if you have a message in you, or have something that you want to help people with, or even if you just want to connect with people in the world right now in a world where we're feeling very disconnected. Podcasting is a beautiful way to do that. You can podcast about anything. In the podcast group for this program, one of the ladies has a podcast about connecting with yourself after divorce, and what a cool podcast!
She has seen incredible growth and success with the program because she followed the same method that I did, and she has found her audience and found her little corner of the internet because of this program. So if you have something on your heart, you don't have to be in business, you don't have to be in marketing, you don't have to talk about what we're talking about in order to be a successful podcaster. Leaning into what lights you up and the message that you want to share. It's on your heart for a reason. And your goal in 2021 should be to finally get it out of your head and into the world.
I'm so beautiful. That is the most perfect note to end on. Particularly the idea that you don't have to have a business to have a podcast and you don’t have to have a lot of knowledge on how to start a podcast. Certainly if you do have a business, yeah, podcasts can help to grow it. But if you have a message to share, that's all it takes. That's all you need. This has been awesome. Jess, thank you so much for coming on and for just sharing so openly, and especially comparing your last launches to this one and what made this one different. You've given our listeners so much to think about, and I really appreciate your time and sharing all of this today.
Thank you so much for having me again to discuss how to start a podcast. I feel so honored. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to share. I hope that it helps anybody in your audience who maybe has launched a podcast before with lackluster results, who had one that fizzled out and died, and they want to start again. It is not too late to launch or relaunch the podcast of your dreams. Nobody is going to judge you for having more than one podcast because your girl has three and nobody cares
So if you just heard that and you’re feeling inspired to launch a podcast of your own, but you’re not sure where to start, don’t worry. I’ve got your back. Doors to the EffortLESS Podcasting Formula™ are closed right now, but they are opening up again in a couple of weeks. So you can get on the waitlist to get access to early-bird bonuses and special perks, and I’ll teach you step-by-step how to create, launch, and leverage your message into a highly profitable podcast and position yourself as a credible leader in your industry, so you can add additional revenue to your business. If you want to work directly with me as part of my next focus group, head to courtneyelmer.com/effortlesspodcasting and get on the waitlist now.
And! If you’ve ever got a question you’d like to ask me on how to start a podcast, come follow me on Instagram and send us a DM @theeffortlesslife.co to ask us anything you want to know about podcasting, building a business, launching your programs, or creating an EffortLESS Life®.
Next week on the show we’re continuing this podcast theme because so many members of our community have been asking us to share more about podcast launching as part of an overall, effortless content strategy to build your brand and be seen as an authority in your space. I’ll show you the five things you need to know BEFORE launching a podcast, so that if you’re considering launching one for your business, you can make sure it’s a good use of your time and energy before you go through all the trouble of creating one. That’s coming up next week on the Systems Made Simple™ podcast, so stay tuned!